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[Get Opera!]

Chad's Deathmatch map (1 on 1)
Comments (73) Go to top of page  
Prepare to put on SPF 50 sun block and some shades because itís kinda bright. The source less lighting looks over lit and the light coloured walls and floors further enhance the effect. The layout is that of a medium sized room with a circular path of semi floating platforms connected via stairs. Bubbling lava makes the set complete by filling up the lower section of the room. There is an attempt at some castle style architecture, but it doesnít add any value.

The thing that tickled me is that when I took the screen shots for the review I didnít notice that in the lava (yes in the lava) are the following: heath pack, small rockets, RL, RA, MH and last but by no means least the Quad. I can only surmise their inclusion is similar to that of a certain unreachable Quad in this thing, i.e. to piss the player off. It works. I suppose itís a taste of my own medicine. Anyway, there is the slimmest of chances of getting them by snagging the Pentagram of Protection, but that isnít easy. Plus I donít think you can get out of the lava once youíre inÖ

So given that the juicy stuff is as good as useless, what are we left with? A SSG, NG, SNG and GL, each of which has been cunningly placed near ammo that isnít of the same kind as what the weapon uses. There is however, given the maps rather titchy size, more than enough ammo. The same cannot be said of the health though, but as the author points out:

"It is a test of skill as there is no health."

I just found it annoying. All this means is that you run around and around and around in circles until you get fragged or bored. And you will.

Paul

Download Here (100Kb)
Scicosiz
Author Site
Reviewed : 12/02/2002

(0.0/5)

#1 Speeds is afraid of typing too much
by Speeds 12/02/2002 - 22:12:32 (80.70.224.164)
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crap of the year (2001) award (I`v already checked all the maps here).
you even paleyd it Paul ? LOL

#2 He's not the only one
by Fat Controller 13/02/2002 - 01:51:10 (203.96.154.224)
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I was gonna review this POS, but didn't submit my review in time. My apologies to Paul for subjecting him to this.

#4 !
by MisYu 13/02/2002 - 14:27:05 (213.76.244.129)
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Don't blame that guy too much, coz maybe it is his first map.
Maybe he'll grown to CZG or Frib?

:p

#5 Heh!
by MaTi 13/02/2002 - 16:21:15 (217.98.20.195)
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My first map was beter :)

#6 heh
by xen 13/02/2002 - 17:29:06 (194.117.133.196)
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Grade 'A' tripe. Avoid!

#7 Ack
by ToadWarrior 13/02/2002 - 18:38:38 (64.91.145.1)
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Makes my first map look super l33t. :D

#8 lol at pics
by Asriel 14/02/2002 - 18:02:38 (203.79.75.124)
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looks like shit.

#9 first map.. heh.. ok
by Electro 14/02/2002 - 20:21:24 (210.8.232.3)
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i'll release my first map soon.. then maybe we can compare? lol

#10 AAAAAgh! What the Fuck?!?
by Nekroe 15/02/2002 - 08:34:53 (198.142.35.17)
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The nerve of that guy to release shit like that! I'm gonna vomit now...

... hack urk cack...

wow, even THAT has a better design... :P

#11 The QMD report:
by Drannerz 15/02/2002 - 10:59:28 (143.52.2.203)
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I heva playde this lvele in servre and it toallly rocks. I liek all the stair n with hte rock edge by the laava and monitro lighst uop my hole room!

~qmd

#12 Dranz!!
by MisYu 15/02/2002 - 16:10:29 (213.76.244.129)
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STOP PLEASE :))))))))))

#13 :((((((((
by xen 16/02/2002 - 13:52:16 (194.117.133.196)
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I dont nkow why your all sayign thsi map is shit, I play this mpa with my firends adn teh gamepay si aewsome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jsut liek in REAL LIFE yuo start wiht no health; i was realy impressd by immense feelign of reality when playign this map on SV_GRAVITY 10!!!!! Liek teh MaTRIX!!!!!!!!!!!

One thign that REALY impreesd me wsa the lihgting - you cna SEE unlike teh crap maps liek LACRIMA were everthing si DARK!!!!! Adn the R_SPEDS!"!!!!! I ahve never seen a mpa look thsi good while runing SO FAST!! Adn it was made in real short time 2, lek 14 mintes or somethign!!!!

I dunno why yuor all beign so fuckign nasty about thsi map, si teh best EVAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#14 btw Paul...
by xen 16/02/2002 - 13:56:54 (194.117.133.196)
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Good review. It's definitely well-written critisism, unlike some maps on the top 10 worst list... *cough*

I definitely think the guy could learn a thing or two from it as most of the comments are pretty shitladen (yeah, I take anticredit for it as well =])

#15 Good for you guys
by Kreator 17/02/2002 - 12:49:36 (66.2.25.21)
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How do expect people to submit maps and continue growth in the Quake 1 mapping community by treating someone's honest efforts as poorly as you do? It's pretty lame.

#16 *PUNCH*
by Starbuck 17/02/2002 - 16:23:29 (213.122.171.221) Refers to post #15
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read the review. It's got advice in it. It aids growth in the Quake 1 community.

#17 Hey now . . .
by MasterMind 18/02/2002 - 00:31:34 (12.229.175.36)
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The least you could do is offer the poor guy some advice on making maps. Im sure your first maps werent the best ever. You should see my maps, they suck! Check out mmdm1a, mmdm2b, and mmdm3b, which received a 1.0, a 1.5, and 2.5 respectively. If your going to laugh at anyones maps, please, laugh at mine!

#19 xen ate the title
by xen 18/02/2002 - 03:51:00 (194.117.133.196) Refers to post #17
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"The least you could do is offer the poor guy some advice on making maps."

Err, I was sure the review helped out in that department.


"I'm sure your first maps weren't the best ever."

Awww, c'mon... it got a 3.5 here; my third DM release got a 5. It just takes lots of playing other maps and picking up techniques, as well as keeping everything neat, with no gimmicks, fast and balanced play, and decently constructed arhitecture. I suppose Lun's site is a good place for DM tutorials, as far as layout and balance go.

#20 yabba dabba do!
by Drannerz 18/02/2002 - 08:26:15 (143.52.2.50)
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A post so nice; he wrote it twice?

#21 MasterMind
by Speeds 18/02/2002 - 20:52:29 (212.46.198.203) Refers to post #17
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"1.0, a 1.5, and 2.5 respectively" ?
you show alot of progress

#23 Kreator doesn't like titles
by Kreator 19/02/2002 - 11:39:40 (66.2.25.41)
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"Awww, c'mon... it got a 3.5 here; my third DM release got a 5. It just takes lots of playing other maps and picking up techniques, as well as keeping everything neat, with no gimmicks, fast and balanced play, and decently constructed arhitecture."

I suppose the fact that it only took you three maps to receive a "perfect score" is a testament to your skills as a mapper. But then again, maybe that would explain why your maps are so bland and contrived; lacking originality and creativity. So congrats when congrats is due. Your peers at this web site may pat you on the back, but every author's maps will speak for themselves; and there is a reason why your releases receive praise through such a limited scope.

As for my review on "Chad's Deathmatch Map," I'd give it a 1.0. There are some forms of architecture going on that many first maps do not contain. There is lighting that is decent, given the context that it is used. There are multiple levels and rooms. The placement of the Pentagram and the powerups found in the lava show that the author has a mind for creative situations -- even if it didn't come together as well as he would have liked on this try.

So Xenon, before you and the bunches of other mappers here constantly rip on this guy and his map and then play it off as "constructive criticism," maybe you should take a few notes. Understand that it has a few aspects to it that place it above the majority of many other author's first map.

#25 Drannerz does the funny dance
by Drannerz 19/02/2002 - 12:42:18 (143.52.2.80)
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Maybe that would explain why [xen's] maps are so...contrived

Contrived? what? How the fuck do you build a map without thinking what you're gonna try and build? All good maps are contrived.

And the "first map" argument is getting really lame. If it's your first map, and it's shite, DON'T FUCKING SUBMIT IT.

#26 P.s.
by Drannerz 19/02/2002 - 12:42:59 (143.52.2.80)
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Arb...stupid slippy enter button

#27 uhm, right.
by xen 19/02/2002 - 13:22:11 (194.117.133.196) Refers to post #23
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"I suppose the fact that it only took you three maps to receive a "perfect score" is a testament to your skills as a mapper. But then again, maybe that would explain why your maps are so bland and contrived; lacking originality and creativity."

W...T....F...? So a high score means a map is bland and contrived; lacking originality and creativity? Excuse me, but what have you been smoking recently? I also put alot of effort into making my maps look both good and original - find me another map with the texture-scheme of Xntrick or the architectural/layout style of Deceit/Engima1 if you want to bring my maps into it. They are far from perfect, but the main objective I set out on is to avoid them from looking 'bland and contrived', nor 'lacking originality or creativity'. Thus, I found your judgement over-defensive and absurd.

"So congrats when congrats is due. Your peers at this web site may pat you on the back, but every author's maps will speak for themselves; and there is a reason why your releases receive praise through such a limited scope."

And that reason is? No, really; tell me...

"As for my review on "Chad's Deathmatch Map," I'd give it a 1.0. There are some forms of architecture going on that many first maps do not contain."

Review sites don't take map-number into account when judging quality, why the hell would they do that? How does the fact that this is his first map make it better to play than if it were his tenth?!

There is lighting that is decent, given the context that it is used. There are multiple levels and rooms. The placement of the Pentagram and the powerups found in the lava show that the author has a mind for creative situations -- even if it didn't come together as well as he would have liked on this try.

Firstly, I don't know how the hell you managed to find the 'decent lighting'; aside from it being excessively bright enough to see your opponents, there it little variation nor detail at all; it looks effortless. And one's ability to put together 'creative situations' is pretty useless unless they can do it well, and the idea works well in QW-style gameplay. Take "Fall", by Born.2.Be.Wild, for example; it has a very original and creative situation involving vertical gameplay. However, it just so happens that the 'situation' plays like utter shite, so it obviously won't get him any further brownie points; same goes for here.

"So Xenon, before you and the bunches of other mappers here constantly rip on this guy and his map and then play it off as "constructive criticism," maybe you should take a few notes. Understand that it has a few aspects to it that place it above the majority of many other author's first map."

Don't even attempt to pass yourself as intellectually superior in this field of judgement. It might help if you bothered reading my extensive comments on other worthwhile maps here, in their release news at Qmap, or even my full reviews at Religion Quake before it went on hiatus. I'll give my full opinion, praise, and tips to improve all to the author if it looks clear that he's actually made an EFFORT to make his first released map look and play well.
In this case however, Paul said all their was to say about this map in the review, and it wasn't worth repeating. 'Scicosiz' hasn't even been around asking for more proper feedback now, has he? I doubt he cares that much anyway; especially seeing as he obviously hasn't taken any tips from the better maps listed here at MPQ.

And yes, yes... everyone's first created map is bound to be awful but that DOESN'T mean you should release it!!!! It's clear this guy hasn't the decency to want to release worthwhile maps if he submits this piece of crap to a popular review website? It's OK for a first map, but should have sayed on his hard drive anyway; who cares if it's better than other authors' first maps if it's still shite?

As for your moaning about lack of "constructive critisism", take Starbuck's post into account and READ THE REVIEW. As I said before, Paul clearly stated the problems with this map and got across why it received such a low score - and it just wasn't worth repeating. Even especially so when the author doesn't even bother responding to the review. Check out the comments on Austin's "AbCool", and see how people were willing to help him improve when he actually showed interest.

If you still remain free to assume everyone here is lazy enough to not bother with putting the time in on constructive replies, then take into account the effort I put in to writing this very post, for one. If the author puts his voice in here, and shows up with a better map. or at least news of one, then I'd happily give him all the help he wanted... as I said before though, that's hardly the case now, is it?

#28 damn =/
by xen 19/02/2002 - 13:28:34 (194.117.133.196)
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That was longer than I thought... and littered with typos. Ah well, you get the gist...

#29 Kreator couldn't be arsed with a title
by Kreator 19/02/2002 - 14:50:32 (66.2.25.35)
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It just does not make sense how a map like "The Gloomy Lab" can receive a higher score.

And as far as this "Should Not Release It" crap, that is pure elitist talk, and you can shove it up your ass along with anyone else who feels the same way. Part of mapping involves sharing your labor with others. If you expect a novice mapper to toil in front of a computer screen for 27 hours, struggling to put together something that they can be proud of -- given their still-developing skills -- and not do whatever he/she can to share the efforts with others, then you are totally missing the point of map making to begin with. It is a ridiculously conceited expectation of your peers. Such comments and actions will do nothing BUT stifle the Quake 1 mapping community, whether you understand that or not.

The bottom line is, if you're going to review a map, review it for the sake of actually helping the author -- not so seasoned veterans can gather around the campfire and "point and laugh." This deserved better than a "0" score. But then again, this is not my site and I guess if these actions are the norm around here, there is little reason for me to continue visiting it or refer others to it as a "viable Quake mapping resource" for the Quake 1 community.

#30 ffs
by xen 19/02/2002 - 17:04:21 (194.117.133.196) Refers to post #29
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People who uses the "elitist" claim on anyone they're losing an argument with deserve no respest whatsoever, for a start.

Maps are reviewed so players know what to download or not. If that's news to you, then take note; any effect on the mapper is entirely passive and indirect.

Now I know my post #27 was long so I can understand you not bothering to read any of it, but please do; it answers everything you've just posted.

Gloomy Lab was even worse. Note the reviewing duties are shared by different people here, though.

#31 Sigh
by Paul 19/02/2002 - 18:14:01 (172.191.169.29) Refers to post #29
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I suppose itís about time I chipped in some comments, although I feel like I am repeating myself, since exactly the same thing has happened before on previous reviews. Xen has pointed some of this out, but I shall reiterate it anyway.

Maps are reviewed with two things in mind. One to tell people whether its worth their time looking at and secondly to give the author some feedback. I will however admit that the first point weighs a lot more heavily for the simple reason that I see this like any other review site. That is to tell people whether it is worth their time to look at a map. I don't read GameSpot to see feedback to a developer about how to improve their game, but information for my benefit as to whether I should invest my time/money in it.

Yes, you can argue it that these maps are free, but if it was on a purely feedback basis, I wouldn't need a site and would just email the author back.

I also think the "Should Not Release It" stands. Ok they can release it, but an author should look at their work and decide whether they want it reviewing. I think Shamblers simple test of, does it even stand up to id quality, stands here. An author can at least compare their work with that if nothing else.

As for the insulting/sarcastic responses, there is nothing I can do about that. I'm not going to remove any posts unless they're really offensive. If you have seen any previous reviews, such as one of QuakeMap's maps, you would have seen that there were friends of QMD who did comeback saying his map was the best thing since sliced bread, when in fact if theyíd looked at it without blinkers on, they would know this was not the case. All these posts here are, are sarcastic rehashes of that.

Gloomy Lab, as xen points out, was reviewed by different person. There is that old saying of : Opinions are like arseholes, everyoneís got one. What someone else thinks is different from what I think. Also Iíve not played that particular map (I have looked at it), but I donít look too kindly on maps that arenít up to scratch. If youíre after more balanced scoring then pay me to run this site and Iíll review everything.

Now this elitist nonsense, donít try labeling me with something that is not true. If I was being elitist I would only review the best maps and even then, not so much review them as just to go on about how good they are. I donít think that has ever been the case and Iíd say go as far as to say I am more negative in any map I review. Perhaps my tone is somewhat berating, but it doesnít seem to bother most people.

The map did not deserve more than a zero because although it showed effort in terms being able to use a map editor, it did not show sufficient effort to create something that was coherent in terms of a general structure. A proper theme was lacking. Lighting is too bright and source-less. The playing area is too small, unless you like running around in circles. Item placement wasnít good and putting them in unreachable areas (sic) doesnít help either. If the author was trying a fantasy style map, then maybe different textures should have been used to imply that. If I see brick style textures, I would expect something that is going to be structurally sound. Not a few buttresses added on for the hell of it.

The author quotes 10 hours as build time, maybe this was down to learning the editor, and if that is the case then take it as such. As experience on what to do. Then start again with these skills to create something half decent. I see this as a test map, nothing more, nothing less.

I believe that you have misunderstood the focus of this site, but now hopefully understand.

#32 hrm
by xen 19/02/2002 - 18:51:18 (194.117.133.196)
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I guess this could be considered as positive feedback, scicosiz, if you're reading this.... which I doubt.

#33 Re : hrm
by Paul @ Work 20/02/2002 - 08:09:15 (213.1.191.88) Refers to post #32
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So Kreator pissed you off that much that you decided to write a tutorial? Hehe :).

Excellent tutorial btw. Shows how easily you can improve something step-by-step.

#34 Oh man :)
by DaZ 21/02/2002 - 15:47:03 (213.1.181.135)
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I am loving this :)

its nearly as entertaining as the flames on Qmap...almost...

#35 Heh
by Paul 21/02/2002 - 16:00:03 (172.190.79.244) Refers to post #34
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I think its all over now... (famous last words).

#36 still dancing...
by Drannerz 21/02/2002 - 16:24:38 (143.52.2.203)
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And as far as this "Should Not Release It" crap, that is pure elitist talk

I said submit, not release.

#37 I think the bottom line is...
by Drannerz 21/02/2002 - 16:30:33 (143.52.2.203)
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This map is shite. It is not the norm to submit maps this crap. If it were, we'd all have recieved 0's at some point in our mapping (I'm sure the huge majority of us haven't ever recieved a 0).
If the majority of us learned to map without releasing crap like this, what's stopping Scicosiz?...lack of talent and awareness. Which ammounts to the fact this map is crap and our derision is justified.

And with that, I am done.

/me goes to bed...with Kreator

#38 Paul ate the title
by Paul 21/02/2002 - 16:55:56 (172.190.79.244) Refers to post #37
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This map is shite.

*Sigh* If only I'd put that to start with, I'd have saved so much time.

#39 Nah...
by xen 21/02/2002 - 17:33:47 (194.117.133.196) Refers to post #34
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"its nearly as entertaining as the flames on Qmap...almost..."

Nah, these are remotely contructive arguments :)

#40 I love mpq
by Speeds 21/02/2002 - 22:27:42 (212.46.202.221)
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aaawwwwwwwwwwww
this ruelz
nice change from usual QMAP pointless arguments with the same ppl ;)))

every review site must have "comments"/board

#41 I can't believe this...
by QMD 22/02/2002 - 02:23:41 (24.200.137.115)
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Here he comes, QMD ! (now you can applause :-) )
(see attached file clapclap.wav)



I would like first to thank some of my fans just mentionned just below;

#11 The QMD report:
by Drannerz 2/15/02 - 10:59:28 AM (143.52.2.203)
I heva playde this lvele in servre and it toallly rocks.
I liek all the stair n with hte rock edge by the laava and
monitro lighst uop my hole room!

~qmd

QUakeMap: Thanks for the contribution Drannerz, and now;

#13 :((((((((
by xen 2/16/02 - 1:52:16 PM (194.117.133.196)
I dont nkow why your all sayign thsi map is shit, I play this mpa with my firends
adn teh gamepay si aewsome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jsut liek in REAL LIFE yuo start wiht no health; i was realy impressd by immense feelign
of reality when playign this map on SV_GRAVITY 10!!!!! Liek teh MaTRIX!!!!!!!!!!!
One thign that REALY impreesd me wsa the lihgting - you cna SEE unlike teh crap maps
liek LACRIMA were everthing si DARK!!!!! Adn the R_SPEDS!"!!!!! I ahve never seen a mpa
look thsi good while runing SO FAST!! Adn it was made in real short time 2, lek 14 mintes
or somethign!!!!
I dunno why yuor all beign so fuckign nasty about thsi map, si teh best
EVAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


QMD: Why did you wrote that Xen? After writing a so constructive message at #27... I loved that message #27, and true about all the answer of this whole review.

Then...

#25 Drannerz does the funny dance
by Drannerz 2/19/02 - 12:42:18 PM (143.52.2.80)
Maybe that would explain why [xen's] maps are so...contrived
Contrived? what? How the fuck do you build a map without thinking what you're gonna try
and build? All good maps are contrived.
And the "first map" argument is getting really lame. If it's your first map, and it's shite,
DON'T FUCKING SUBMIT IT.

QMD: Paul I have a question. About the last sentence of Drannerz " If it's your first map, and it's shite, DON'T FUCKING SUBMIT IT." can you just not show those maps that are getting blasted by poor and comments. Then send a bunch of link on how to improve his skill of mapping and telling him what is the problem with his maps and stuff. I don't think the guy needs to be over blasted like some of th epeople here are doing. I understand what is probably the feeling of the author now, because I've received in the past the same process. Read this constructive comments below:

#15 Good for you guys
by Kreator 2/17/02 - 12:49:36 PM (66.2.25.21)
How do expect people to submit maps and continue growth in the Quake 1 mapping community
by treating someone's honest efforts as poorly as you do? It's pretty lame.

#17 Hey now . . .
by MasterMind 2/18/02 - 12:31:34 AM (12.229.175.36)
The least you could do is offer the poor guy some advice on making maps. Im sure your first
maps werent the best ever. You should see my maps, they suck! Check out mmdm1a, mmdm2b, and
mmdm3b, which received a 1.0, a 1.5, and 2.5 respectively.
If your going to laugh at anyones maps, please, laugh at mine!

#27 uhm, right.
by xen 2/19/02 - 1:22:11 PM (194.117.133.196) Refers to post #23
There is lighting that is decent, given the context that it is used. There are multiple
levels and rooms. The placement of the Pentagram and the powerups found in the lava show
that the author has a mind for creative situations -- even if it didn't come together as
well as he would have liked on this try.

Check out the comments on Austin's "AbCool", and see how people were willing to help him
improve when he actually showed interest.

QMD: I approve 110% Xen.


Note for the author:

" I think 0.0 is not the exact score you should get, get one thing sure, you shouldn't get ANY public score for this map. When a map is not enough good to get at least a 1.5 or whatsoever, you should received your review in a private message at your email adress + a bunch of links on the web to improve your skill. If you really love what you do, you won't give up. I didn't give up, I started to learn worldcraft few weeks ago, slowly but I do. Cool people gives support at #terrafusion and beleive me, it is NOT everybody that just think first maps or whatsoever first try of mapping that are all "pile of shit".
Many MATURE people are mapping, you will just need to find who are they and they will be happy to gives you advice and help.

I played your level, yes there is missing those box of red cross (health), (and yes guys I've tryed sv_gravity 10) those stairs looks pretty like my stairs in CHQMD (http://pages.infinit.net/quakemap click on LEVELS and then get CHQMD), we need to improve by practicing, learning tips from the others, looking good maps with high score and see what we can do like those and stuff.

And finally, God bless Scicosiz...

QuakeMapDesigner, alias QMD.
http://pages.infinit.net/quakemap
"where imagination means levels!"

#42 Sorry.. about #13
by xen 22/02/2002 - 03:46:17 (194.117.133.196) Refers to post #41
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I was joking... don't take it too seriously =)

#43 lol
by Electro 22/02/2002 - 06:38:25 (203.134.19.8)
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hahaha... i just HAD to post again... this is just so dam funny.. talk about SHIT

#44 consideration of others
by 0lden 22/02/2002 - 09:14:38 (63.161.240.238)
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just poped in to look at some new maps for an olden game and what did i find? i found this mess. by the werd mess i mean all the scribble on the black board here, not the map being judged. no the map isn't one i will d/l, but in all honesty, why give this poor guy so much shit? i question why this map was even reviewed?? well i guess the answer is that you fellows simply wanted to fry this guys nads in the skillet, and that's sad :( and no, i'm not the author of this map, so don't think foolishly that i am. i'm dissapointed in this web site for creating this mess and i want the webmasters to know how i feel. adios for it's prolly my last visit for this is truly sad. grow up boys! and herry up about it!

#45 Ignorance
by xen 22/02/2002 - 12:00:10 (194.117.133.196) Refers to post #44
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.

#46 Sigh, again
by Paul 22/02/2002 - 13:30:59 (172.190.159.205) Refers to post #44
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i question why this map was even reviewed??

Because on the Comments & Help! article it says :

So what is MPQ about?
MPQ (MultiPlayer Quake) is a website which reviews any Quake DM map it can get its hands on regardless of quality. We do try to give fair reviews but it has been known for our rather temperamental reviewers to slaughter bad maps. You have been warned!

The idea of this site is to create an archive of most of the Quake maps out there.


Any map that is willingly submitted will be reviewed. Please read the above article and the other rather lengthly posts by xen and myself before replying again.

#47 Natural laws cannot be broken...
by Bascule 22/02/2002 - 16:57:30 (134.146.9.19)
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Once again, the MPQ Law of Reviews is demonstrated:

<i>Number of posts is inversely proportional to map quality
/me goes to search for maps with zero posts.

#48 damn
by DaZ 22/02/2002 - 17:02:09 (213.122.2.247) Refers to post #47
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That works! :)

#49 My 2000 (Euro)Cents
by loTTe ohm 22/02/2002 - 17:15:30 (212.144.143.163)
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Good and fair warning, Paul. But I think the problem is that the average newbie mapper can't assess the quality of his map correctly. The "compare to other maps" argument sounds good in theory, but I know from own experience and talks with other mappers that you tend to think your first map really is the best thing since sliced bread. In fact it was more luck than brains that kept me from releasing my first map.
And every time such a shit map gets reviewed here, the same stuff happens: Flaming and hurt egos. And when it gets reviewed with harsh words, that furthermore strenghens the effect of creating an atmosphere where the mapper is more likely to give up frustrated instead of trying to improve.
So maybe you should think again about your policy. I'm perfectly aware that the "fair reviews for everyone" and "creating a complete archive" arguments are valid. And yes, they asked for it, but only because they didn't realize it to full extent. You can punish them, but objectivly nobody would mind if you miss out the really bad maps. Sure, reviews are for the people, not for the mapper. But what value beside a few laughs has such a review? If not getting reviewed here, I think the "danger" of downloading it by accident is very low. And I for my part really don't care for a complete list of shit maps out there.
When getting sub-standard maps submitted at my site, I tell them politely that I won't review them and say why and what can be improved. And I made really good experiences with that. I think that helps the mapper more than even a fair review with the usual comments following it. And saves me time for maps that really deserve a review.

Hmm, rather lenghty and sounds probably quite slimy. But maybe you'd like to think about it. Is your policy really worth the hurt egos and the bad atmosphere?

#50 Paul is afraid of typing too much
by Paul 22/02/2002 - 18:40:37 (172.190.159.205) Refers to post #49
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QMD : Please use something to show when youíre quoting someone, its really hard to read otherwise. See my response to loTTe below as well.

Bascule : I think youíre onto something there.

loTTe ohm : Iím starting to come around to this idea of not publicly reviewing low quality maps just down to the amount hassle and time it wastes. I could send them over to Cranky Steve instead.

Seriously though, I see three obvious solutions to this.
1. Just continue as is.
2. Review them, but disable comments on maps that score under 1.5 (given its really the comments that cause the problems. The review is slightly negative, but Iíve definitely tried to be more helpful.)
3. Not review them and potentially give the author feedback.

But I think the problem is that the average newbie mapper can't assess the quality of his map correctly

I cannot believe that someone is not able to load up dm1 and [insert naff map] and see the difference. I understand that their judgement is clouded slightly by the fact its their work and there is usually the syndrome of "its good because I made it." Surely though its more obvious than that? Maybe Iím just missing something here?

And every time such a shit map gets reviewed here, the same stuff happens

Itís a worryingly regular pattern. One that needs to be stopped. Iím not so much bothered about the flaming, thatís kind of expected really but itís certainly not my intention. Itís an open message board so people will bitch.

And saves me time for maps that really deserve a review.

Hmm, the reviews donít take very long actually and are a lot easier to write than for a good map for fairly obvious reasons. I suppose though in the long run it takes more time given all the fricking comments I end up writing.

Thanks for your comments. I'll have a think about what to do.

#51 lol!
by Electro 22/02/2002 - 23:59:58 (203.134.26.2)
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this map looks bad and plays even worse
can't help but laugh
what was he THINKING!
<LordHavoc> he wasn't
lol

#52 Possible Solutions?
by MasterMind 23/02/2002 - 00:31:14 (12.229.175.36)
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Maybe you could divy up the site into three sections: crap maps - mediocre maps - and Good maps.
I see two things that could happen in this scenario though:
1. No one ever looks at the crappy or
mediocre sections. Or
2. People intentionally go to the
crappy and mediocre sites to help
the authors out and give them tips.

Its also possible to make 5 sections that correspond with the grading scale. What are your thoughts? What could be added to this idea? Is this Idea crap?

#53 WTF is about the whole problem here?
by MisYu 23/02/2002 - 03:21:55 (213.76.244.129)
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Review is subjective, Paul is the reviewer.
De gustibus non est disputandum, so bitching Paul for giving less score as usual is just madness. If you won't agree with score, run your own site and score maps for yourself, but DAMN DON'T BITCH SOMEBODY WHO'S WASTING HIS TIME FOR MAP, WHICH TOTALLY DOESN'T GIVE POSITIVE FEEL.

Personally I agree with 0/5 for this one. I've checked lots of maps at ftp.cdrom.com and most of them were similar- unplayable, bad lighted, in weird scale, texturing and layout. If we agree that 3/5 map is like DM1 (good textures, good layout, probably good items placement, good lighting, detailed architecture but nothing monumental) then this map should receive:

- minus for textures
- minus for lighting
- minus for layout
- minus for scale
- minus for gameplay
- minus for items placement

That would be 0.5 x 6 = -3 score = 0/5

And besides, Paul's review doesn't blame anything. It is constructive, compare it to review of one of Vondur's joke map. Map was joke, review was joke as well.
This map isn't joke, so review isn't joke too.

Is it so hard to understand?

/me kisses Paul, Dranz and XeN

P.S. Splitting MPQ won't help and probably it will occur "elitist" problem again. I suggest to leave MPQ as it was and is.

#54 loTTe ohm is afraid of typing too much
by loTTe ohm 23/02/2002 - 09:15:45 (212.144.150.35)
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Paul: Thanks for taking my comments seriously. I must admit that I didn't expect them to have much effect.
Hmm, I'm not so sure that disabling the comments will be the best solution. Those comments can also be very helpful after all.
I think the best way to help newbie mappers to improve without giving them all this shit, is something like Musashi's Beta Test Forum. Maybe open up a section with sub-standard maps. No review, just a few hints for improvement and everyone who really wants to help can also comment. If this works out the right way, it can lead to a way more helpful atmosphere.
And about that that strange phenomenon that you can't assess your first map correctly: I also can't explain that, I just can guess some possible factors.
- Your friends tell you how cool it is.
- You are fascinated by the fact that you can transfer your own ideas and imaginations into the game and solve all these "difficult" problems to get there.
- You are more into cool and gimmicky stuff than into creating solid maps. You don't see and don't care much about things like correct texture alignment. The newbie mapper thinks the former makes a map good, while a veteran mapper / reviewer usually leans more towards the latter.
- You can't compare your map well to those maps commonly accepted as good. Mainly because you don't know what it is that makes them good. Having very little experience and knowledge, you aren't really able to analyze a map correctly.
- And maybe also because you just want it to be good and fantasize about Thresh playing your map and such stuff. Who really understands the stupid things humans think and do?

Oh, and Electro: Would you please stop this. It's excactly the shit I talked about. What is the use of such comments? And the fact that you never released a map yourself doesn't help much.

#55 I agree.
by MasterMind 23/02/2002 - 15:43:22 (12.229.175.36) Refers to post #54
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When I started out, I knew a good map from a bad one, but I couldnt transfer the 'goodness' of those maps to my own levels. Now that I have been mapping for several years, I can easily point out the good aspects of a map. Things like themes, flow, architecture, things like that, I didnt understand when I first mapped. I just figured that if I slapped one texture to a wall that was good enough =). Box rooms I also thought were good enough to play in as well.

My mind was very 3d oriented, but over time I improved my maps little by little, as you can tell from my maps. MMDM1a sucks horribbly, probably worse than the one reviewed here. MMDM2B was a tad bit better, and MMDM3B was quite a leap I think. Wait till you see MMDM4D, which is in the pending review section. I even have MMDM5 almost complete, need to work out a few bugs though. Ok, im rambling off the topic, I will stop now! (I dont think I was ever on the topic =(

#56 MasterMind ate the title
by MasterMind 23/02/2002 - 15:45:08 (12.229.175.36) Refers to post #55
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^^^^^^Correction^^^^^^^
*My mind WASNT very 3d oriented hehe

#57 I bet...
by MisYu 23/02/2002 - 16:03:22 (213.76.244.129)
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...this is a record of the amount of comments at MPQ =)

#58 omg!
by Electro 23/02/2002 - 21:12:51 (203.134.26.2)
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isn't it amazing how such a map can spark so much community interest? NO MAP HAS BROUGHT US THIS CLOSE TOGETHER BEFORE!

/me hugs #terrafusion

#59 idea...
by Drannerz 24/02/2002 - 15:53:03 (143.52.2.80) Refers to post #50
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What you need is a reviewer just to review the shite maps, to deliberatley flame them and soak up all unwanted abuse (leaving the real reviewers here at MPQ to go about their job)...and that man is me.

I don't mind being whooped by hairy assed zinges such as Kreator. I'm used to being laughed at. The other day I was walking out of my house, and I looked through the window, and there was a big crowd outside. And I thought: "sweet, a circus or something." But when I went outside they all pointed at me and laughed and then left.

Send all your shite this way, I'm man enough to take it.

#60 Man this thread grows...
by xen 24/02/2002 - 15:53:22 (194.117.133.196)
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Electro: I would tell you to fuck off, but seeing as you were planning on hosting me in the near future, that might be a bad idea. Just, please, stop with the pointless, abusive posts.

Lotte Ohm: "And every time such a shit map gets reviewed here, the same stuff happens: Flaming and hurt egos." <--- Go to the 'top ten worst maps' here and look up the comments posted on a map called 'AbCool', by Austin. That map really was terrible, but the author turned up early and admitted the map "bummed", in his words; basically he took Daz's comments in the review to heart and recognised his mistakes, so lots of people were willing to help him try and improve.
-If he had still thought the map rocked and argued against the review, then people would have flamed him.
-If he submitted the map and subsequently vanished from this area of the net, like mister Scicosiz here, then people would have just come up with a few insults and left it at that, no harm done. This map would have gone the same way if it hadn't been for Kreator's ranting.
It also depends on the first post; people will get the general tone of it and follow that style.... If speedy had posted something constuctive then maybe others would have, too (myself included, sorry... all I did was quote a Paul closing line from the review of another 0/5 map here - can't remember which it was)
Basically I still think bad maps should get reviewed. I'm not sure all that crap I just posted backs it up, but I still do =) .

Paul: Don't change the site plan. Really, it's fine. I think most people will have learned some important things about nettiquette (eww.. I HATE that word) after reading this thread as it is. If it happens in future we'll all know what to say :P

#61 gaaaaah
by xen 24/02/2002 - 15:58:44 (194.117.133.196)
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Drannerz, you have a very irritating habit of always posting at the same time as me...

Anyway, you're one of the most abusive cunts I know; maybe we can set up a 'Cranky Chris' or 'Cranky Drannerz' section at RQ dedicated to your shameless flaming. In fact I might suggest it to Daz, or even Paul - you hear that, pauk? =)

#62 Meep Meep
by Paul 24/02/2002 - 17:00:13 (172.190.93.53)
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MasterMind : Sorry, I'm not keen on the sections idea, sounds like it would be messy. As for your other post, it was interesting to see what you were thinking so it doesn't matter it wasn't on topic :).

MisYu : Err thanks (stop with the kissing), but I wouldnít rate dm1 that highly :P.

loTTe ohm : I like the idea of beta section, I dunno whether I will implement this though.

Drannerz : Excellent idea, but I'm now impervious to it as well so I'll take whatever stick people wanna give. Maybe we could have Drannerzís corner on RQ like xen said.

Electro : Pardon my french, but STFU YOU RETARD. I mean it in a nice way.

xen : Thanks. See next bit :)

Everyone : Ok, now down to business. If fault was going to be placed then it should be on me because I started this whole abusive reviews thing (/me thinks Saving Private Ryan. It still makes me laugh when I read that review, even though I shouldnít). Now whenever we get low scoring maps we get people expecting a barney.

I'm now trying to be more helpful and not as abusive in reviews of this kind and as such I'm gonna stick to the way the site is run. Any map submitted will be reviewed. I will however email the author with feedback. If people post crap (comments) I will remove them and I would like people not to rise to the bait and just not reply. Note that I didn't reply until post 30-ish. Silly me thinking it would run out of steam.

Finally I want to do two things. The first is an article explaining why we review any map, should be a cut and paste job from here. The second is another article with links to resources and points of help on mapping. I would be very grateful if people could come up with suggestions (heh, and save me some work).

#63 Enough experience ????
by randyom 25/02/2002 - 03:24:35 (194.172.110.35)
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After all comments I think i will do my very own first DM map in the next two months.
When will see if it's enough only to play quake since the first days to know if a maps looks good.
And if not you will see playing experience have nothing to do ith mapping .... or ???
( so ctf is dead and no one is reviewing that I can do also a dm map)
(Thanks to misyu on his download section I found a registered worldcraft *g*)

#64 Xen (why the name change btw?)
by loTTe ohm 25/02/2002 - 13:46:39 (212.144.150.157) Refers to post #60
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Sure, I'm perfectly aware of the positive effects the review and comments can have. This is why I proposed the "help-instead-review-section".
This could go "Sorry, map not good enough for a review. Next time try to improve x, y and z (opposed to x, y and z is bad)." Because of stating everything in a positive way, flaming should be avoided. And if the author and potential helpers are interested, the conversation really has a chance to become a fruitful one.
Sure, it can also turn out like that after a normal review. But experience shows that it's unlikely. And I just feel kind of sorry for the newbie mappers (that sometimes get more shit than they deserve) and the community atmosphere (that gets poisoned by all this flaming).

#65 Ditto loTTe ohm's comments...
by Panzer 25/02/2002 - 22:53:53 (66.69.2.164)
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I'm a fairly new Q3A mapper, but have always been more interested in Quake 1 and 2. The reason I don't map for those games is I can't figure out the compile process for them. Compile vis...compile light...compile bsp and aas and so-on and so-forth. There are a lot of complicated steps involved that most of the veteran mappers take for granted and I think maybe they should point out/suggest how to VIS a map or whatever the map may be lacking. Some newbie mappers might not know how... sure don't (thanks to the lazy Q3Build compiler) My point is this...if you "veteran" mappers would like to see the Q1 community still thriving in 2-5 years, a little help to the little guys would be very much appreciated. BTW...I'd like to try my hand at some Q1 mapping so any links to some quality tutorials and editing tools would be nice! Thanks for listening and hope to see some more great stuff here soon.

#66 Paul ate the title
by Paul 26/02/2002 - 04:11:44 (172.189.122.53) Refers to post #65
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In regards to tutorials and links I'm in the process of creating something that would probably be of use to yourself and other people who are just starting Quake mapping.

Just out of interest, what editor are using (for Quake, not q3a)?

#67 editor
by randyom 26/02/2002 - 07:43:34 (194.172.110.35) Refers to post #66
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using worldcraft 1.6

#69 Choice of Level Editor
by Panzer 26/02/2002 - 08:30:04 (66.69.2.164)
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Q3Radiant build 2.02 It's very powerful and I just wish things like VIS and LIGHT for Quake were compiled at the same time as the BSP. I think that's where a lot of people stumble as newbies because there seems to be little or no reference on the subject of how to use these programs (credit that to the age of the game) I tinkered with WorldCraft a little bit before going with Radiant and Q3A, so I think I'm gonna re-install it on my machine. What build is the best for Quake?

#70 1.6 I think
by Paul 26/02/2002 - 15:30:29 (172.188.74.176) Refers to post #69
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Not entirely sure since I used Quark (/me ducks). As for getting hold of it, ask MisYu, he should know :).

randyom : I'm not sure what you're saying in post #63.

#71 Worldcraft :)
by xen 26/02/2002 - 17:12:50 (194.117.133.196) Refers to post #69
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Check my comments on the latest news post here =)

#72 Now we're getting somewhere!
by Panzer 26/02/2002 - 17:30:34 (66.69.2.164)
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Now that's what a community does. If this is any indication of what may come, there could be a huge surge in Q1 mapping interest. Wouldn't that just rock the Q3A and RtCW communities?!!

#73 worldcraft
by randyom 27/02/2002 - 03:13:28 (194.172.110.35)
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ok misyu has already removed his worldcraft versions from http://quakeworld.gracz.net/misyu/files/ for download but with this versions I was able to upgrade to fully licensed worldcraft

#74 Panzer
by Paul 27/02/2002 - 17:38:25 (172.191.245.114) Refers to post #72
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I tried to reply to your email at [email protected] but it bounced. Got another email address I can try?

#75 That's funny...(weird funny)
by Panzer 27/02/2002 - 20:05:31 (66.69.2.164)
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Can't explain why it didn't get through, but here is my alternate:

[email protected]

I found some help at QuakeLab, but some essential files are missing (such as QBSP, ARGHLITE, etc...) I also installed QuArK but I might go with WorldCraft. It had the feel of Radiant when I tried it. Just gotta get comfortable with it first. Thanks for all the support and hope to get some active links to those progs soon.

#76 Sorry for using this as a message board...
by Panzer 27/02/2002 - 21:28:32 (66.69.2.164)
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I also visited The Forge and found some files there (RVIS.EXE, ARGHLITE.EXE, ARGHRAD.EXE, QBSP.EXE 1.65 and Full) and I would like to know which ones to use. These are for WorldCraft and I still don't know what version is best for Q1 (current build is 3.3 but only for Half-Life) nor where to download it from. Ok, I'm gonna try to stop using this as a board, but felt a larger base (the community at large) could be a better source than just a few people. Future comments will be sent via email. Thanks Paul!

#77 Seventy Fricken Seven
by Nekroe 04/03/2002 - 12:45:06 (198.142.43.110)
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Jesus! I turn my back for a few weeks and this is what I return to??

#78 Sssh you
by Paul 04/03/2002 - 16:21:32 (172.190.158.40) Refers to post #77
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Keep quiet or it'll wake up.

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