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[Get Opera!]

The Grim Citadel (1v1 & 2-4)
Comments (32) Go to top of page  
Extra Info (03/01/2001) : The original review is based on an old version of the map. Various amendments have been made to it since then, which don't affect how the map plays and are merely aesthetic. There is however now a secret in the map that gives you a Ring Of Shadows for your troubles. The download url has been updated to this latest copy of the map.

Original Review (15/12/2000) : After the secret containing nugget that is Rpdm7 - Halls Of Darkness, it comes as somewhat of a surprise to find that this map has no secrets at all. I'd go as far to say I was a little disappointed at that, although Rotpig suggestively hints at there being one. If there is, I couldn't find it.

Power up hungry monkeys will also be down heartened because there is just one this time round, the Quad, which is placed on an easy to get to walkway.

The style and aesthetics are the same as the last incarnation in the series except that the general scale of the map is bigger. There were however not as many wow factor areas. The most visually appealing section is shown in the first screen shot, whilst the rest of the map is a culmination of corridors and one large double-layered hall.

I also had a few moments of déjà vu wandering around the map thinking that I was sure I'd seen things before. The layout doesn't give any real 3d type play, but there is a sufficient variation in height between different floor levels to keep it interesting. It is also a better playing map than Rpdm7, due to the layout being more compact and not so dispersed.

Ammo is rather low, so you'll not always be using the RL. I had some very close quarters SG/SNG action going on in the catacombs/flooded water section of map, dodging back and forth around the curved archways.

Speaking of which, the sound cue from the water is a dead give away to a player's location. To make a full circle around the map you have to walk through it and if you want the RA the same is again true.

Duelling works perfectly well, but if play FFA you'll be able to glean some more ammo due to the extra backpacks left lying around.

Paul

Download Here (478Kb)
Omicron Bot Route File
Dean
Author Site
Reviewed : 03/01/2001

#1 excellent
by Kayin 15/12/2000 - 01:31:54 (216.127.1.14)
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i helped rotpig beta this one so i guess i'll give my 2 pennies on the final.

im guessing you added the water in the final compiles, because they weren't there in the betas... regardless, it adds EVERYTHING to the play. sludging thru trips off your enemy (if human, the only way to play 1-1) and sets up some nice ambush attacks when making a run for the rl or restock on armour.

rl - armour runs CANNOT be completed in silence, and that's pure beauty. quad - supernail combo is quite a leathal repellant to a rl-wielding foe as well. (altho borking the quad trips them to your location as well)

again, truly awesome visuals, even more so with the finished piece. the crags on the side and the views from the windows really give a nice sense of place, a stronghold set high in the mountains... overall a great showing, rot. i'da gave it 4.5

and i still haven't found your fuckin secret yet... =P

#2 Fucking Homestead...
by Shambler 15/12/2000 - 05:41:59 (194.112.32.102)
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....they blow shit, I hope they go under the wankers. This direct link might work:

http://freeload.homestead.com/_ksi0701961598652811/rotpig/files/rpdm8
.zip

#3 Oh sweet mother of God.
by Shambler 15/12/2000 - 05:43:28 (194.112.32.102)
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http://freeload.homestead.com/

_ksi0701961598652811/rotpig/files/rpdm8.zip

Copy'n'paste the first bit, copy'n'paste the second. Any way to get past their shitty fucking download page is worth it even if it's more effort.

#4 What the fucking hell??
by Shambler 15/12/2000 - 05:45:32 (194.112.32.102)
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Paul please fix the linkage.

Rotpig please move to another site host.

#5 Shambler
by Paul 15/12/2000 - 07:01:10 (212.158.46.221) Refers to post #4
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Its done on purpose. The site cuts off long pieces of text because theres nothing in HTML to "word wrap" it around (and so breaks the site and you've done it on Qmap so you should know). Its the lesser of two evils.

I'll put the file on here tonight so that no-one will have to download it via homestead.

#6 Okay...
by Shambler 15/12/2000 - 14:06:38 (194.112.32.102)
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Anyway, the map, very nice, except for one thing that really bugs me: The teleporter from the GL ledge to the Quad - WHY??? Why not have an opening or an entrance there?? The two teleporters are back to back, it's so illogical to have teleporters there....kinda messes up the feel and the gameflow. Aside from that I really like it, it's great to see something classy done with pure Id textures (as I always maintain is possible, people just don't try hard enough :P).

I really think you should try a SP map now =). You certainly have the architecture for it.

#7 Hello, im back now...
by Rotpig 18/12/2000 - 00:14:31 (203.35.83.4)
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Thanks to the great work of some mother-#$%#ing hacker out there, my PC took a big dive into the lava. please tell me this sounds harmless... "BIOS ROM CHECKSUM ERROR" lovely. because I was unable to access another PC for 4 days I couldnt rectify the mistake i made by submitting the wrong version of my map! The one you've all seen is only a beta version... DAMN IT. I've missed the boat now, I know, but I would've liked to have the right map reviewed! Time to moap around aimlessly now... bye

#8 Why the tele?
by Rotpig 18/12/2000 - 00:23:32 (203.35.83.4) Refers to post #6
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Well, if you spend some time in noclip mode, you'll see that that teleporter is there for a good reason. When I was creating the map from scratch, that hall was unobstructed but the R_speeds in that hall and the courtyard were through the roof (about 1200) not nice. this is because you could see all the poly information in the courtyard and the quad room at the same time! I wish I could have excluded that back-to-back teleporter but game speeds had to be the winner.

#9 Another review? please? please?
by Rotpig 18/12/2000 - 00:26:58 (203.35.83.4)
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The next version of this map is a lot more finished and interesting. Think of it in the same light as one of Kayin's maps, Fried potatoes and pineapples, which was given a second chance. I understand that if every map were reviewed twice, then only half the maps would get looked at.

#10 well :)
by Fern 18/12/2000 - 00:53:36 (141.222.155.39)
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accidentally submitting a beta seems much more pardonable than submitting what you think is a finished version and then screwing around with it. I wouldn't mind playing the full version, that's for sure :) From what you've said it doesn't sound like it would actually need a new review, just some FPP-like amendments

But it's not my call at all :)

#11 bah
by Kayin 18/12/2000 - 13:03:55 (198.234.237.22) Refers to post #10
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hey, see if i ever try to fix incomplete maps ever again you bloody shite... =D j/k

#12 yeah, no major changes...
by Rotpig 18/12/2000 - 18:10:09 (203.35.83.4)
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The map's layout is still basicly the same, with only minor and unnoticable changes. A few diff tex's. The visual interest though, in some areas, becomes much better. Also, that secret I hinted at in the readme is in the final beta. BET YOU CAN'T FIND IT. Now that ive said that, every blind-drunk fool will see it first place they look... I'll be posting the final ver onto fileplanet today (I have an FTP Folder deal) so there wont be any of that shite with homestead downloads. YAY!

The map r_speeds are also reduced considerably by the new version (some areas in the already released version get up to around 1100!)

#13 You dont have to go in the water...
by Rotpig 18/12/2000 - 18:13:15 (203.35.83.4)
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To circle the map, you don't have to go through the water. The teleporter in the lower part of the quad room takes you to the other side of the water.

#15 yer on...
by Kayin 18/12/2000 - 21:08:42 (216.127.0.171) Refers to post #14
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...oh.
(nevermind...) /sulks off

#16 oh god no
by Kayin 18/12/2000 - 21:10:21 (216.127.0.171) Refers to post #12
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fileplanet makes baby jesus cry.

#17 New link to map...
by Rotpig 19/12/2000 - 19:46:01 (203.35.83.4)
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http://www.fileplanet.com/index.asp?file=53575

there it is.

#18 Luny doesn't like titles
by Luny 22/12/2000 - 06:22:20 (195.197.185.114)
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The sky goes all grey when using FOV's > 110 (which I believe every DM player uses), is there anything that could be done about that? Great map besides that btw.

#19 hmm...
by Rotpig 22/12/2000 - 10:27:43 (203.35.83.4) Refers to post #18
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Can't help you there, except to say that you can try changing the FOV back to the default of 90.

I don't really understand why people would use a diff FOV value. To be honest, the only time i ever checked that command was after reading the post here (I quickly ran winquake to check it out). Changing the FOV seems pretty useless, all it seems to do is exaggerate the perspective lines and in Glquake I dont think it can be changed...

#20 Luny chickened out with a title
by Luny 22/12/2000 - 12:12:30 (195.197.185.114)
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In the past few days I've gone through over 100 maps, and found maybe 5 maps decent enough to be player regularly =) Your map was one of them, but that grey sky thing keeps me from putting it on the server.

Players use higher FOV because they want to see more, basically. Also it gives a sense of faster gameplay, and you don't generally have to move your eyes so much. FOV 90 gives me a headache nowadays after about 3 years of FOV > 90 =)

#21 Thankyou
by Rotpig 22/12/2000 - 20:33:06 (203.35.83.3) Refers to post #20
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tis' good to get some feedback on a map. I still dont see why my map greys out like that. How many other maps have such problems? Is it something to do with the amount of sky or the geometry? Besides all that, I'm sticking to FOV 90 and GLQuake. Pity my map couldn't get on your server! :o(

#22 HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
by Ferny 29/12/2000 - 23:35:26 (24.147.243.193)
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I finally found the damn secret. Now I can die complete :P

~Fnre

#23 Oh yeah....
by Fern 29/12/2000 - 23:37:35 (24.147.243.193)
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Things do grey out at FOV 110. I'm not quite sure why, but since Quake looks ridiculous in FOV 110 as it is, I hardly think there's much of a loss there.

#24 Pretty nice map
by ToadWarrior 30/12/2000 - 02:07:07 (209.173.76.19)
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I've enjoyed this map, plan on keeping but Lilith is still my current favorite new map. :)

#25 Kayin chickened out with a title
by Kayin 31/12/2000 - 18:54:02 (216.127.0.103) Refers to post #24
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lilith is just a bunch of bloody boxes with hallways! ppfffft. you're almost as bad as me, falling for new textures over gameplay. +D

#26 boxes 0wn j00!
by ToadWarrior 31/12/2000 - 21:22:19 (209.173.76.37) Refers to post #25
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With or without boxes, I still say it plays pretty good. =)

#27 i kno...
by Kayin 31/12/2000 - 23:34:55 (216.127.1.6) Refers to post #26
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i just have to ribble vondur. lilith is a really good map... small, but well constructed.

(btw, von i stole your readme for industrial disease, haw haw.)

#28 ><((((º>
by Frib 01/01/2001 - 02:45:46 (61.9.192.141)
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I'll tell you exactly why you'd get greying out/greyflash on some maps with a higher FOV...

(I assume this is the case, I haven't checked this map specifically yet)

As most of you would know, in software quake polys will start to be culled after a certain point, both brushes and entity polys with flicker in and out of existance if the r_speeds get too high (approx 1000).

What may not be immediately obvious (it should be, but perhaps it isn't ;) is this:

higher FOV = more polys being displayed
more polys displayed = higher r_speeds

In extreme cases there'd be a LOT more being drawn... let's say you use FOV 130+ (some people do!), its drawing approx 150% more than in FOV 90.

This is why (a pity so few mappers acknowledge it) maps should ALWAYS be optimised as much as possible, because people may have slower PCs than you or settings which cause the game to run slower.

Also the example of Rotpig's current map demonstrates the danger of relying too heavily on an arbitrary number with r_speeds... saying 'well the r_speeds are just under 1000 so that will do' is just laziness really, and its especially silly to rely on an arbitrary cut-off point (eg keep adding detail till it hits 850 or something) when you realise that 850 does not equal 850. You might be seeing 850 r_speeds in FOV 90 while on someone else's setup its well over 1000.

Anyway, just generalising here, and Lun is probably playing the beta (Rotpig just mentioned that the r_speeds are much worse in the beta ver) so I'll go check the full map now.

#29 fov
by Kayin 01/01/2001 - 03:46:06 (216.127.1.6)
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here's an idea..

fov 90 or fuck off. if you want to go off and induce yourself with mind altering console commands, fine. just don't bitch if it also alters how the map looks / plays.

and HAPPY FUCKING NEW YEAR

#31 High r_speeds...
by rotpig 01/01/2001 - 06:11:40 (203.35.83.4) Refers to post #28
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Yes, this map does have much higher r_speeds than most. Probably due to the realtive size of the main area, amount of detail and clipping info.

"well the r_speeds are just under 1000 so that will do' is just laziness really"

I don't think I'm lazy about optimising a level. In fact, I spent many hours recompiling this level just to improve game speeds. Seems though, that it didn't improve the grey out effect. (not that I was aware of this at first)

#32 That's interesting
by QuakeMapDesigner 02/01/2001 - 09:38:45 (24.200.48.151) Refers to post #28
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What Frib's wrote is very interesting. I noted what you'va said. Those are cool tips i need to know. That's why am happy about adding your webpage with asmall banner in my LINKS at my webpage. Cheers.

Nice work Dean.

QMD.

#35 Got new version
by ToadWarrior 03/01/2001 - 23:03:48 (209.173.76.5)
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Still a top notch map. I'd love it see it online. :)

#36 Luny doesn't like titles
by Luny 08/01/2001 - 08:07:19 (213.173.139.146)
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The solution for areas graying out or items disappearing (in software quake): r_maxedges 9999 ; r_maxsurfs 9999

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